tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post116245889916683360..comments2021-12-12T09:07:17.657-05:00Comments on Stephanie's Town Meeting Experience: One for the agesStephanie O'Keeffehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13139345960579356043noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162582587185914642006-11-03T14:36:00.000-05:002006-11-03T14:36:00.000-05:00I am a little confused. One of the articles is ab...I am a little confused. One of the articles is about withdrawing from the Iraq war immediately. But, we are not at war with Iraq - in January of 2003 Town Meeting passed a warrant opposing a military attack on Iraq. So how could we be in Iraq?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162575770313837632006-11-03T12:42:00.000-05:002006-11-03T12:42:00.000-05:00Good God (oops, there I go again with the Deity th...Good God (oops, there I go again with the Deity thing) please don’t give Mr. Weiss any ideas! He will have Town Meeting sitting thru an entire performance of “Lose Change,” amateur-hour plus one-half. Yikes<BR/><BR/>And I’m sure he will cite that one-half of the production team, Dylan Avery served in Afghanistan and Iraq. <BR/><BR/>Just as he used the silly statistic Wednesday night that 500 active duty military want us to withdraw from Iraq, but failed to mention the other ONE HUNDRED THIRTY NINE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED who did not sign the petition.<BR/><BR/>You Know WhoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162571367414466592006-11-03T11:29:00.000-05:002006-11-03T11:29:00.000-05:00I'm firmly in the "Town meeting should stick to to...I'm firmly in the "Town meeting should stick to town issues" camp.<BR/><BR/>I'm barely sympathetic to the "We need to discuss these Important Issues and Make Ourselves Heard" crowd. There are a <B>gazillion</B> opportunities to contribute to the National Debates: talk radio, the Internet, national polls, letters to the editor...<BR/><BR/>Making a couple hundred people sit through a presentation of your pet issue at town meeting (no matter how heartfelt) is impolite.<BR/><BR/>You believe the President should do something about Darfur. I believe our government should stay the heck out of other countries (and you should support private organizations NOT run by a knucklehead like George Bush that might actually have a chance of doing some good overseas). <BR/><BR/>Town meeting isn't the right place for a debate about the role of the federal government.<BR/><BR/>Some people believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy, and another commision should be formed to investigate further (I think they're nuts). Should they be given an opportunity to present their case (they are VERY convinced that they're right and that it's an important issue) at Town Meeting?Gavin Andresenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10105284501947275111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162503743257438602006-11-02T16:42:00.000-05:002006-11-02T16:42:00.000-05:00So, in essence, Mr. Greenebaum rejects a fundament...So, in essence, Mr. Greenebaum rejects a fundamental discipline of government: to draw lines. No topic, no "concern" is out of bounds. Everything is on the table. <BR/><BR/>He has stated the counterargument clearly, however. I would submit that there are premises to his very rhetorical argument that haven't been examined. (The basic argument seems to be "we've always done things this way, so why change?") <BR/><BR/>Here's one assumption that never gets examined: I'd love to be a dustspeck on one of these Town Meeting resolutions, one of these pieces of paper, after it left the Middle School Auditorium, to see just how long I would ride along, whose desk I would get buried on, before I ended up in a wastepaper basket.<BR/><BR/>Will anyone report back to Town Meeting just what happened to last night's resolutions, some of which were passed with a vote total less than a quorum? Just what makes what Town Meeting did last night something more than just talk, something that we could characterize as "action"? Or are we getting "talk" and "action" all mixed up?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162497995467766172006-11-02T15:06:00.000-05:002006-11-02T15:06:00.000-05:00Let me try to explain why I support TM considering...Let me try to explain why I support TM considering resolutions and petitions on matters beyond the scope of town affairs. First, as a legislative body we are expected to discuss matters brought to us by town boards or citizens. As individuals we may write letters, op-ed commentaries and speeches, but it is easy to be entranced by the sound of our own voices and rare to hear opposing viewpoints. Last night we spent so much time discussing dismissal that we couldn't have a real discussion on the issues. Perhaps it is hard to imagine an opposing viewpoint on Darfur, but the other three articles might have been debated in a useful way.<BR/><BR/>Second, why should we debate such matters of national and international import? As Mr Blier acknowledges, there is a long tradition of town meetings voting on national and international matters; it is one of the reasons that I am such a committed supporter of town meetings. I do not agree with him that anything has changed to replace this conception of democracy. We can blog to our heart's content and find common cause with likeminded partisans, but a serious discussion among neighbors of issues that affect us all cannot be had in the swirl of new technologies.<BR/><BR/>Third, what has changed are the rigid divisions between domestic and international, and local and national. If Tip were alive today I suspect even he would say that all politics is global. <BR/><BR/>Lastly (and I could go on), one of the things I think I have learned from history is the high and tragic cost of staying silent in the face of injustice or incipient tyranny. Arguments like "its not our concern" or "it doesn't belong here" sound painfully familiar, and I will always choose to consider such articles seriously. So while I appreciate Peter Blier's lucid and respectful presentation of reasons for dismissal, and while I appreciate and understand Stephanie's reasoning, I also appreciate the petitioners who are refusing to stay silent.<BR/><BR/>Michael GreenebaumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162497566734285092006-11-02T14:59:00.000-05:002006-11-02T14:59:00.000-05:00So is Dennis Haster (R) now the President of the U...So is Dennis Haster (R) now the President of the United States?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162486473745012492006-11-02T11:54:00.000-05:002006-11-02T11:54:00.000-05:00Thank you Stephanie for your clear thinking, your ...Thank you Stephanie for your clear thinking, your devotion to Amherst and your ability to describe the the unimaginable.<BR/><BR/>Last night's meeting was bizarre and a new low for Amherst town government. How long...how long, dear Lord, must we continue to be the laughing stock of Western Massachusetts?<BR/><BR/>Shame on you, Bob Kusner! It's time you grew up! <BR/><BR/>Kudos to you, Peter Blier, for your eloquent attempt to interject a note of sanity in this mad charade.<BR/><BR/>My way? I abstained until nausea got the better of me and then I left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162478692138208232006-11-02T09:44:00.000-05:002006-11-02T09:44:00.000-05:00From jeff blaustein's comments:However, I wish tha...From jeff blaustein's comments:<BR/><I>However, I wish that there were a way to count the votes of those us us who may have agreed with the philosophy of the articles, but disagreed with TM as a forum for them. Some of us abstained; some, like Stephanie may have voted no; many stayed home.</I><BR/><BR/>I think the votes to dismiss provided exactly this opportunity, in a way that abstention and particularly absence did not. Attendence at last night's meeting was 24 fewer than at Monday's meeting. It's probably safe to assume that the bulk of those who chose not to attend last night were opposed to TM's consideration of these issues. As it happens, 24 votes is exactly the number of additional votes that would have been required to pass the motion to dismiss Article 3.<BR/><BR/>It's quite likely that the majority of TM opposes consideration of these issues, but TM missed the opportunity to say this because of the variety of ways that people chose to express this view - in particular, remaining absent. So instead, we have the Town of Amherst going on record as supporting these issues with a vote of around 35% of its legislative body. Town Meeting's "voter turnout" last night (59.9%) was less than that of the general public in the 2000 US Presidential Election - a sad situation indeed in a town that prides itself on its political activism and citizen involvement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162476771964086462006-11-02T09:12:00.000-05:002006-11-02T09:12:00.000-05:00As Stephanie has demonstrated, the only way to avo...As Stephanie has demonstrated, the only way to avoid ambiguity in this situation is to explain. The neat trick in these resolutions is that they put a gun to your head as a Town Meeting member: it's a form of coercion. <BR/><BR/>So let the record show: I stayed home. And further,I had nothing better to do. But I decided I would not play the proponents' game. I make no judgement on what others did. Stephanie could not bear to stay home, and I respect that. I could not bear to vote "no" on the Darfur resolution, even though I believed it didn't belong in Town Meeting. In addition, as a private citizen, I could have voted "yes" on the Iran resolution. So Stephanie's blanket "no" would not have been ok for me. <BR/><BR/>I was pleasantly surprised by the size of the "yes" vote on the motion to dismiss and, if we have another Night of Political Self-Indulgence, I would attend and vote with that contingent.<BR/><BR/>If voters think that I have shirked my duty as a Town Meeting member, they are welcome to vote me out if and when I run again in 2009 or 2010. But I do not believe that I should speak on behalf of Precinct 7 residents on these issues.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that one of these resolutions per year is enough to keep Amherst Town Meeting in contact with the grand New England tradition of grass roots petitioning that the proponents keep puffing about. Until they realize that, I believe that they are contributing to the slow atrophy of an institution about which they say that they care so deeply. <BR/><BR/>Rich Morse, Precinct 7Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162474835885619142006-11-02T08:40:00.000-05:002006-11-02T08:40:00.000-05:00I was unable to attend last nights meeting. I was ...I was unable to attend last nights meeting. I was working for Swing the Vote and MoveOn.I could not justify letting those responsibilies go in favor of debating national or international issues that our votes will have no real effect on changing things. There is still time to get out there and try to change the course of our nation and the world. Talk to me and I'll tell you how you can be involved. <BR/><BR/>Stephanie once again thank you for your thoughtful and thorough writings on Town meeting although I'm worried for you that you should have such an awful dream about Mr. K.. Perhaps you should drink a little more coffee before the meeting so you don't dose off and have such nightmares. <BR/><BR/>yuriAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162472283647837892006-11-02T07:58:00.000-05:002006-11-02T07:58:00.000-05:00First of all, some thank yous. Thank you Stephani...First of all, some thank yous. Thank you Stephanie for staying up into the wee hours to write this articulate report and have it ready for our morning coffee. Second, thank you Peter Blier for taking the courageous steps that will undoubtedly be misunderstood by many. Thank you Harrison Gregg for sticking to your guns and requiring that, if we are going to have a Town Meeting form of government, then people involved be required to show some respect for it and for the Moderator. No comment yet on Mr. Kusner, until I figure out what the point of the show was.<BR/><BR/>I think it's fair to say the the vast majority of Amherst residents probably agree with the intent of the four articles that we dealt with last night. However, I wish that there were a way to count the votes of those us us who may have agreed with the philosophy of the articles, but disagreed with TM as a forum for them. Some of us abstained; some, like Stephanie may have voted no; many stayed home. Votes of 86 or 85 out of two-hundred-forty something TM members are not convincing. It's wrong to think that 85 or 86 TM members have a right to speak for 35,000 or so residents on anything more than town government. Those residents have a right and responsibility to speak for themselves on matters of national and international policy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22213795.post-1162470216987672332006-11-02T07:23:00.000-05:002006-11-02T07:23:00.000-05:00So we demanded the President do something about Da...So we demanded the President do something about Darfur and to get out of Iraq immediately and to never attack Iran (who just tested a new missile that can reach Israel) and oh yeah, by the way, we also voted to impeach him. Makes it a tad less likely for anything to get done on the first three items. <BR/><BR/>And the last time a President was distracted by impeachment he took his eye off a ruthless enemy who unleashed death and destruction previously unimagined by complacent Americans.<BR/><BR/>So it was okay for folks to infer the President lied about Iraq--but when I replayed on Monday night Anne Awad giving Town Meeting a bad figure at the May 30’th Cherry Hill discussion (with the subtle suggestion she lied) I get censored.<BR/><BR/>President Bush either lied about Iraq and should indeed be impeached; or he believed some of his advisors, who were obviously wrong.<BR/> <BR/>Anne Awad either lied about Cherry Hill revenue intake “as of May 22’nd” and should be impeached; or she believed an advisor who was wrong. <BR/><BR/>When the Town Clerk read the Warrant she announced Rob’s formal name “Robert K Kusner”. I wondered for a moment what the K stood for. After his T-shirt performance, I figured it must be “Kid”.<BR/><BR/>You Know WhoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com